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Since 1959 we have striven as a family-owned business to build a gun shop that is here to grow with your family. For this reason, jacketed hollow point (JHP) ammo is the only realistic choice for those who carry a handgun for self-defense. When the .223 exits the barrel of a gun, it flies at more than 3,200 feet per second, and is still going 1,660 feet per second after traveling 500 yards. More damage with one shot. you should read TIFU my boss shot me reddit. The 45 1911 did just that. Its all about follow up shots. There are tons of manuals and a ton of information so that you can write an informed post. .45 Actually killed to individual who I shot vs the others who all but one lived. My $.02. It has less recoil, is less expensive and its penetration apparently compares favorably with the larger-sized rounds. I personally dont find much difference in recoil between a compact 9mm and compact .40 S&W; but I recognize and am sympathetic to other shooters who do. Circulatory collapse will result in significant deprivation of oxygen to the brain. If an operator like a .45 go for it. If a 9mm bullet barely misses the heart or aorta of an adversary, but the heart or aorta of that same person is creased by the slightly larger .40 or .45 caliber round, it can be said with conviction that bullet diameter, expanding or not, really does matter. .223 Rem in 5.56 NATO is OK. As a medical provider who fractured his back, making a house call in Alaska-dealing with chronic pain issues-I have talk to our local Police Captain. The .223 is carrying 335 foot-pounds of force, while the .22 carries 70 foot-pounds. Which is better? Sound familiar?? I do lean toward my 1911 just because I like it. For the spray and pray that they teach nowadays the high cap 9mm is good. 45 acp damage human body In winter I concealed carry a 1911. Where the human component is a significant factor thats been deleted from so many test results. Patrick states that since vital organs are located deep within the body, it should be obvious that to ignore penetration and permanent cavity is to ignore the only proven means of damaging or disrupting vital organs. Remember it is massive blood loss that causes circulatory collapse. The bullet that struck U.S. Representative Steve Scalise last week was traveling at somewhere between 1,100 and 2,600 feet per second. This makes rifle rounds significantly more damaging than their handgun counterparts. WebA 9mm -40 - 357sig -45 ACP all do about 11-13" penetration into the human body no temporary wound cavity, and the diamiter differnce is from 9mm(.355(.357 caliber)) to 11.5mm(.45 caliber). Grinder: I realize this reply is way late in being posted, but I couldnt let that pass. 45 Acp Damage Human Body But its easy tell which one of you are the idiots, and those of us that actually know are trying to skate uphill teaching those that dont. Spread the word; knowledge is power! Since the mid-2000s, gunmakers catering to consumers who increasingly buy weapons for self-defense have produced fewer of the small-caliber handguns like the .25 or .32, and, A .22 will kill you, but it wont blow your head apart, he said. The .9mm, took3 rounds to the chest and he never even paused. Greater tissue displacement is likely to lead to more blood loss. I sort of like the Canik TP9v2, with Browning BXP xpoint 147 gr load. Over time, conditions that damage the liver can lead to scarring (cirrhosis), which can lead to liver failure, a life-threatening condition. Supposedly he is firearms and forensic expert with the Rhode Island State Crime Laboratory. This type of damage is known as permanent cavity. Here is the money point: assume you will only get ONE shot at the perp. However, there are two factors virtually everyone agrees on: 1. I know a LEO that works in Mendocino County CA. the legendary .50-cal. actually kills When fragmentation occurs, the permanent cavity expands rapidly and dramatically. I still carry a Ruger P-97 in 45 ACP caliber. It is also of considerable general interest if for no other reason than to show how often the movie makers and novel writers make appalling blunders. The National Rifle Association is one of the most powerful special interest groups in America. In the black powder days hollow points had not been invented yet and most bullets were round nose lead so the larger heavier bullet hit harder. The only gun I could get to in time was a Glock 17 loaded with 115 grn jhp ammo. I still did like the 39-2 for CC. My neighbor saw that the guy was afraid of the thing and couldnt get back on target after the 1st shot due to the recoil and his flinching with every shot. Why do I say that? Im sorry but a 225 grain bullet going 850 1200+ fps vs a 127 grain bullet going 975 1150 fps is going to be more effective and deadly. It stood there looking at me. And speed causes expansion of bullets in a meat target. I have read how the 124gr 9mm ammo used by NATO does not do its intended job. Shot placement is often cited as a consideration when choosing the right handgun for self defense and for good reason its definitely important. This whole conversation for over 2+ years is hilarious. If you have been hit with any kind of bullet large, fast, expanding, or otherwise please, Gunman Used Heavily Restricted Assault Weapon in California UPS Shooting. Note that buying a handgun for personal protection is not an abstract desire. The amount of energy deposited in the body by a bullet is approximately equivalent to being hit with a baseball.. The pistol is not their primary weapon. Glocks are cheap and reliable. There were no exit wounds. While each of them has no direct bearing on incapacitation, they must all be considered. I would go with the 38 Super + P. Now you have something to rely on. Core, you touch on something that I have often thought about. Glock 19 only playing catch up with those guns. When it does occur, it is not a significant factor in wounding. 3 rounds all center mass within 2 inches of each other. So banter on gentlemen. What do you think of the Shield or do you know anything about it? I carry a Sig P226 9mm, or a Springfield 1911 in 45. Enter https://www.police1.com/ and click OK. SS and Homeland couldnt be to aly wrong!!! Physics says my 225 grain .45 ACP ,+P+ traveling at 1210 fps is more capable than ANY 9mm currently available. What causes more damage, .45cal pistol or 5.56 mm rifle? 24 Round Magazine now only decreases reload time by 5% rather than 20% like before. So how can we expect people to take a human life so readily? 158 gr 0.38" Special plain lead bullet will only penetrate one side of a human skull. I also am a NRA Certified Instructor and gunsmith in Colorado. For damage; within 50m against soft targets I want to say it goes 7.62 >.45 > 9mm. But a .45/70 at 1597 fps equals a .270 Win at 3200 fps ballistically on impact and follow through. And other trauma surgeons are on record as saying that they cannot tell the difference between wounds caused by 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP. However, the .45 would likely be stopped from penetrating but there was a 30% chance, with good shot placement its energy could stop the heart. There is enough blood within the brain at any time to support conscious, voluntary action for 10 to 15 seconds even in the event of the destruction of the heart itself. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); 2023 Concealed Carry Inc. All Rights Reserved. 9mm Luger offers greater magazine capacity and less recoil/more weapon control at a lower cost. Plenty of gang shootings. I leave distinguishing the difference for law enforcement and military.In the moment of truth youre either going to hit properly or not. Let the operators in theater chose what they want. One of the best ammo in the market right now is Hornady Critical Dury which is 135 gr. The absolute best thing that anybody can do, find a pistol that suits you that you like, get a high capacity round, and train yourself in situational awareness so you dont have to worry about shooting somebody on accident. I shot 8 watermelons, 4 for each gun. Died instantly. In the past, one of the standard tests performed to assess bullet and cartridge performance was the penetration of pine boards of various thicknesses. The deers shot with 9 ran and ran far compared to the short distance the 45 shot deer covered (100yds or less). Everyone should buy a magnum-powered handgun in .357 or larger caliber and feel completely secure that he or she has the best stopping power. Surprising, I know, given the current state of affairs in DC. of a gun, it flies at more than 3,200 feet per second, and is still going 1,660 feet per second after traveling 500 yards. Also, I have pretty much explained what you have just said. Take it from me, a physics major. But I think your decision is not based on any real scientific backing and is more rooted in confirmation bias than anything. Because head shots are rare and extremely difficult, and torso hits are likewise difficult and do not result in immediate incapacitation, choosing handgun bullets for officers is a critically important task. WebWhen youre in the midst of dealing with an attack, the reduction in blood flow to your hands (along with the chemical changes in your body) will likely result in an increase in your pain threshold. It is all in the throat (Leade) and where the bullet contacts the rifling. Real world combatants or keyboard commandos. I have never fired a .45 but rarely find the grips comfortable when I pick them up. 0.177" Steel air gun dart will penetrate to shank, in skin, at 120 ft/s. The 7.62 round is not as fast as the .223, the round fired by the AR-15 (Americas most popular semiautomatic rifle), but it, . However, from close enough range you could manage. Head on over to the Concealed Carry Podcast for great audio content. If, God forbid, you are ever in a situation where you are required to use your handgun, there is, to put it mildly, a great deal at stake. The original FBI testing of bullets conducted in the late 1980s involved testing the Winchester 147 grain subsonic hollow point 9mm round, the Remington 185 grain hollow point .45 round and a 10mm 180 grain hollow point round. 15 round magazine is better than a 7 round magazine. A 9 is a great backup. According to the Marine Corps Times: For Marine special operators, the never-ending debate over whether the 9mm or .45-caliber round is the more powerful bullet has been settled. 45 guy and .357 mag lover . In one case study of a 24-year-old man struck in the chest by a .40-caliber hollow-point pistol round, doctors found organ damage outside the direct path of the Look for a box or option labeled Home Page (Internet Explorer, Firefox, Safari) or On Startup (Chrome). As to which will stop a human fasterhavent a darn clue. The 5 Most Controversial Handgun Rounds Sources say Jimmy Lam used a TEC-9 style pistol, illegal to sell in the state for almost two decades. About 5 yrs ago I read a document comparing the damage to a human body wearing, at the time, state of the art LE body armor. Practice is key. Select the option or tab named Internet Options (Internet Explorer), Options (Firefox), Preferences (Safari) or Settings (Chrome). And I can certainly understand WHY you would be led to thinking that switching to the Glock 21 would improve your chances of getting a stop. I just know the most important thing is to shoot a lot, and carry the gun you are most comfortable shooting. Police1 is revolutionizing the way the law enforcement community Officer needs help!! It did when it came to FMJ bullets. Though the patient survived and only had a small wound, he suffered extensive contusions throughout his lungs. Both really do not muster up for the Marines. Ben, enlightened folk like you (and myself) understand that politics is ALWAYS at play on some level!! A pistol just sucks in that situation. Police, f.b.i., train. damage An exit wound differs greatly from an entrance wound. This is why you must choose your weapon carefully and train with it diligently. I have never personally tested 9mm long range, but I have seen 45 Auto results. As Sir Isaac Newton pointed out a few centuries ago, for every action theres an equal reaction in the opposite direction. I like all of them. What I saw in Korea during the Korean War was that the .45 ACP was the most deadly For a bullet to be effective for law enforcement, it must be able to penetrate the body between 12 and 18 inches to reach large vital organs to cause rapid blood loss. and their caregivers describe a lifetime of chronic pain, repeated surgeries years after being shot, and challenges to everyday living that come from losing parts of vital organs, like a woman who has to buy her son, We are currently looking for shooting survivors to discuss their experience and their recovery. Our PD Captain has suggested that if I wish to carry, as a civilian, that I carry a .45 cal. We enjoy our 2nd amendment and want it protected and were prepared to give our life to defend our country. The programs, policies, and people driving positive change in Americas gun violence problem. The past 45 years never needed more than one shot. I see no problem with any branch of the U.S. military using the 9mm, but they need to go back and annul the Hague Commission signing. In Sicily had m14 auto and bi pod. Ill leave it at this and welcome any comments of common sense and or experience. Ships To Store. The 9mm is a typical government one-size-fits-all solution. Somebody needs to vet their sources of information and also use a little common sense. human body The .357sig does have very impressive ballistics. All this is much different than the British Armys approach to marching headfirst into conflict, taking aim and firing. Hmmmmsince there probably wont be any takers how about we all shake hands and realize were all bound brothers with the same interest. Weve known this for, what, eighty years now? This pits apples to apples and will once and for all lay to rest all this ludicrous debate. Cyst fluid rich in lipids and inflammatory factors is a characteristic pathological manifestation of ACP and may play a very important role in hypothalamic injury caused by tumors. The amount of energy a bullet radiates into a target is determined by a simple formula taught in high school: Its the product of one half the projectiles mass times the square of the velocity. Sawed-off Ammo Type: 12 gauge. Damage: 62. The .22, meanwhile. The human body experiences four main types of acid-based disorders: metabolic acidosis, metabolic alkalosis, respiratory acidosis, and respiratory alkalosis. The Ruger SR1911 is comfortable for some reason and I have considered getting one from time to time. This includes victims shot by suspetcs and suspects shot by our officers. F=MA is not applicable. If you take it in the field and get it dirty, see how easily serviceable that weapon is then. 45 ACP and departments. So you can rely on us to provide quality pre-owned weapons backed by our famous guarantee. 9mm Federal 150 grain Micro HST or Winchester 147 grain Ranger will expand 0.7", better than at least half the .45 defensive rounds out there (most common expansion is about 0.6", which is the same as many modern 9mm defense rounds), but there are also some.45 I dont know if the recoil might throw me off. The science says otherwise. Most people ask to be shot with the 9mm instead of the .45acp. The flesh can tear and cells can burst as the tissue erupts outward and then slams back. Oh yeah, I long forgot where I read it. What damage can a .45 caliber bullet do to a human? - Quora The question isnt how many people die from being hit with a certain a round, but rather what do they do immediately after being hit?. Everything I understand and everything I have read and looked into if persons really going to throw down its going to be less than 15 yards and closer, at that point and Im just being honest I dont even use my rear sights once I get within 10 yards of a silhouette Im just going off at the front sight Focus and thats it, I compensate for the offset not using the rear sights by dropping the front sight a couple inches lower to anticipate the recoil and it is very accurate. As where the .45, would dislodge the silhouette every time with a single shot. Missing it not an option. Being only 30 the 9mm argument was often a argument and war waged by my generation of officer. Thats funny. Thats not the kind of performance Im looking for. In fact, the .223 projectile, a common round for the AR-15, is not much larger than many .22 rounds like the Hornet, typically used for youth shooting sports, target shooting, and hunting varmints. Not to kill but enough to let us get to our guys or a firearms. by Kyle Mizokami Key Point: These are the bullets that will do the Now that you know where I am coming from. Why is .45 acp so much better than 9mm? SEMPER FI. And it is acceptable to me that they made at least some of their determination based on the need to accommodate smaller hands. However, in a self-defense situation, the object isnt to kill your attacker; its to end their ability to cause you harm as quickly as possible. EVER! This reasoning may not make sense to many of you, but it does to me. This, as with any other type of penetration test, is plagued with inaccuracies. (My opinion) I have long advocated carrying 1911s with 8 extra magazines. In most courtrooms today a good lawyer will take you apart for shooting a home invader more than one time if you hit him with the first shot in other words you wounded him with the first shot why did you keep shooting? Talk to someone that has been shot with a 9mm FMJ round and ask them what it feels like and contrast that to someone that has been shot with a 45 ACP FMJ round. If the Government is involved in any way, money will change hands. Keep in mind that fragmentation does sometimes occur, however, it cannot be relied upon. Everyone talking about knock down power verses speed seems like. Now marine I hope your watching now instead of using glock 19 in a 9mm counterpart here is a better suggestion why dont you use a glock 21 4th gene to insure ur fellow colleges a better a faster on the spot accuracy with zero recoil it will enable them to be more successful in hitting targets. I am aware of the ballistics of both rounds, and am a handloader. The Human Torso Test. One writer mentioned the old adage about wounding one and it takes two more to remove him from the field of battle. Most people get creatine through seafood and red meat though at levels far below those found in synthetically made creatine supplements. If I am just going to the range with my son, I prefer the .45. Not so with rifles with muzzle velocities of 2800-4000 fps, depending on the caliber. Theres no reason to mince words a handgun for self defense exists to create damage to the human body. But only weighed 140 lbs then. I see your point. I think the armchair warriors need to think about how a pistol is barely effective in military situations. 1SGT. The one thing Ive learned and seen over a lot of shooting is that a 9mm with FMJ bullets is mostly useless. If I were young I would consider a compact 45, but at 73. I havent heard anything about the M17 yet, but I am guessing that people will say at least they arent completely worn out and rattling like a kids toy, with parts falling off them, like all the M9s were.. The rifle round, which is longer than a pistol projectile, likely also began tumbling after its point collided with his hip. For almost 17 years that I carred a badge I carried a S&W 357 on a K frame. If you have been hit with any kind of bullet large, fast, expanding, or otherwise please fill out our survey about your experience after being shot. human body WebAs shown in Fig. A pellet traveling at 450 fps (feet per second) can cause serious injury or death to a human depending on the type of pellet and the location of the impact. I spent FAR more money letting her out every pistol they had for rent than I did purchasing her final choice. Theres been many people shot and continue. It turns out, however, that things arent that simple. Im an athletic guy so handling the recoil is not too bad. Oh, and Sgt. With that in mind The most lead I can force through the air, the better. Where a bullet hits the human body is also a major factor on whether it inflicts a mortal wound. I have a rock island arms 1911 45, a Walther p22 22cal., A heritage rough rider 22 6 inch barrel. George. During 15 years of LE, I have seen literally dozens of gun shot wounds. Over the years I have owned and carried many 1911s. Come On People!! Another reason why in war officers loved the 45 as for close infighting it usually too just 1or2 shots to land the enemy on the ground. Q-Did the owners of their weapons replace recoil springs on a maintenance schedule? What will each round acco. Request a quote for the most accurate & reliable non-lethal training, A shootout that killed multiple FBI agents underscores the need for cops to use bullets that will neutralize an adversary as quickly as possible. Your tax-deductible donation will directly support nonprofit journalism on gun violence and its effects on our communities. for all the same reasons. Our only requirement is that you give Ammo.com appropriate credit by linking to the original article. The two calibers no one wants to get tagged by . Second Media Inc., 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. A true warriors gun. That problem is solved by making more of a bullets surface area actually come in contact with its target. I do believe that whether its a 9 mm or 45 caliber youve got to be accurate with the placement of that round otherwise youre just wasting shots. and love a SA trigger. The money has to come from somewhere. Having fired 45 ACP and 9mm at human targets the 9 took 3 sometimes 4 hits c.o.m. Model. While the classic .45 ACP round is large, its also relatively slow, with an average velocity of 850-900 FPS for most types of ammo. The Krag was a failure for two reasons. Four ribs had essentially turned to dust. Many of the debate points industry experts and defense folks make are moot. and manufacturers. A tool yes but not a valid substitute.